Asian Quotas, are Asians themselves partly to blame? - PROAZN.COM COMMUNITY: Asian Men and All Races of Women Coming Together

**mango girl** · #1 (**permalink**) 10-02-2007, 09:36 AM

This is going to be another long personal post, I hope you can bear with me!

Since MGB and I are getting serious, we've been taking some hard looks at Asian issues. For a couple reasons, one for me to learn what his experiences are, and two to have an understanding of what any children we have may experience.

I guess it's totally different from an AM/AF relationship, as the AF has grown up aware of the culture, mainstream issues, and parenting choices. Whereas MGB and I come from totally different backgrounds and have little understanding of where each is coming from.

The one Asian kid my age from my hometown has married a white woman. We got in contact again on myspace, he and his wife now have 4 children, and we have been chatting a bit. Overall, they have had a great experience in raising their children; the only thing that has really bothered them is how to classify their children on surveys (such as census, college applications, etc).

So we've taken a look together at racism in the college application process, and the perceived cap on Asian Admissions. Because of this, MGB has pretty much said our children will check the white box on college applications (be funny with a Chinese last name). But this one article really got me thinking. Especially since MGB is always talking about our children being groomed for the Ivy Leagues.

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/10/10/asian

In particular this part of the article.

Quote:

At the same time, he and others said that part of the problem in admissions today is created by Asian applicants — and especially their parents — who tend to accept only certain colleges as legitimate options.

Colorado College, where Cederberg now works, has an Asian population under 10 percent — a figure that is quite typical for liberal arts colleges. Asian students are considered to add to diversity to the college and she has the full support of the college in recruiting them, she said.

Based on working with institutions where Asian enrollment exceed 25 percent — something that is increasingly common at elite publics in California and top universities elsewhere — she said she hears lots of talk about admissions officers who complain about “yet another Asian student who wants to major in math and science and who plays the violin” or people who say “I don’t want another boring Asian.”

On one hand, these Asian kids worked hard, got the grades and the test scores, attempted to make themselves model perfect in order to get into the top universities. They did the work, they should reap the rewards, right?

But then if you consider that the Asian population is only about 5% nationwide and that they already have a much larger piece of the pie then their demographic would normally allow for.

Then there is this viewpoint, taken from the blog of a half Chinese-half American Indian man.

Quote:

The Oriental mind is little more than a hard-drive, memorizing information to cram for a test, to get a good grade, to get a degree and eventually to get a job with a high paying salary. This is what Oriental parents have pounded into their children and this is the result, an entire generation of mindless brains unable to think for themselves on any significant level, an entire generation of “memorizers” instead of cultivating a society of “thinkers”. And yet it is with this definition of “education” that Asians can get away with the label of “smart” even though they can’t process any information for themselves. Rare indeed it is to find a true intellectual personified in an Asian still rooted in his own culture and heritage. I soon found it increasingly difficult to maintain deep friendships with my Chinese peers who were consistently only interested in cars, video games and the cute Asian girl across the isle when I yearned so desperately to dialogue with them on comparing Plato’s Republic with the Analects of Confucius. Granted, a true intellectual is hard to find in light of society’s rapid mental decay, yet of that small number of those who are, how many of them are Asian? Yes, Asians fill the top universities, yes, Asians are crawling with honors and merits, yes, Asian are flying through with perfect grades yet how many of them are actually intellectuals? The sad truth I found to answer this question, is “virtually none”. I’ve looked. I’ve searched. The number is minuscule in an already minuscule demographic.

Interesting points of view, when you consider them as a whole I think. So I guess this begs the question then, are Asian quotas still racism, or do Asians need to diversify themselves? Do we really want our top Universities filled with mold fitters, or is there room to look at the other qualities, such as creativity, that doesn't show on standardized testing and GPAs.

Mellow Yellow · #2 (**permalink**) 10-02-2007, 09:49 AM

Of course it's racism. Because of how my last name sounds, I remember wanting to check my "ethnicity" as "Native American" (not really, but I did think about how easy it would be if I was Native American). My dorm neighbor next door, a really cool Mexican-American girl, told me that her SAT score was 890. This was at University of California, Berkeley. If I had submitted an application with an SAT score of 890, they wouldn't read the rest of my application. They would have laughed at me.

Remember Supreme Court Justice Clarance Thomas? Last night they interviewed him about his new book and in it, he opposed Affirmative Action. Now, other Democrats were saying that he got into law school because of it and that he should support it but his reasoning is that he wanted to feel that he got there because of his own abilities, not some sliding scale based on color.

Mango girl's boyfriend · #3 (**permalink**) 10-02-2007, 09:52 AM

If we want America to be stronger, we should pick the best, brightest and those that worked hard. Therefore I believe in terms of college admissions, it should be merit based based on the individual with allowing some extenuating circumstances if it’s applicable. All throughout my life, I’ve heard from my parents and my bosses, if you work hard, you will be rewarded. .

We, as Americans, are too concerned with fulfilling a percentage of so and so race to fill up our college campuses that is indicative of the world outside the classroom all for the sake of diversity. Diversity on college campuses is coming at the cost of America’s future. I honestly believe White America is scared of a college system where the demographics will be like that of the University of California school system. They are fearful of having a school demographic comprised of a 30-40% Asian student body.

If you’re a US citizen and you worked hard, why shouldn’t you be able to reap the rewards of your hard work? In the end, we just want to make a living and be productive members of society. Why should we be held to a higher standard? Is it because we beat the system?

I'm not advocating special treatment nor do I want Asians to be the majority student body in all the top tier colleges. What I do want is a level playing field where people are based on merits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mango girl

Interesting points of view, when you consider them as a whole I think. So I guess this begs the question then, are Asian quotas still racism, or do Asians need to diversify themselves? Do we really want our top Universities filled with mold fitters, or is there room to look at the other qualities, such as creativity, that doesn't show on standardized testing and GPAs.

Those are very good points. I believe any quotas are racist. Like I said, it should be merit based and at times allow for extenuating circumstances if the individual has overcomed obstacles. Diversity in terms of filling x percentage of a certain race, in my opinion, is coming at a cost to America's future. As for diversifying, I wouldn't exactly call Asians mold fitters, granted parental pressure does play a huge factor in a child's choice of major in an Asian family but there's also those that want to choose "traditional" Asian majors. As for creativity, if you look at the fashion (Fashion Institute of Technology), art (Parsons) and music (Juilliard) there is a sizable Asian population as well. All of which require portfolios or auditions to get in.

It's not that we don't diversify. Do we diversify as much as we should? That's a matter of personal opinion, I personally think we do. It's just that we as Americans, Asian Americans included, are kinda obsessed in hearing about the cinderella story of an Asian son or daughter from Asian immigrant parents that scored a perfect SAT score and gotten into one of the H,P and Y (Harvard, Yale and Princeton).

Mango girl's boyfriend · #4 (**permalink**) 10-02-2007, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mellow Yellow

Of course it's racism. Because of how my last name sounds, I remember wanting to check my "ethnicity" as "Native American" (not really, but I did think about how easy it would be if I was Native American). My dorm neighbor next door, a really cool Mexican-American girl, told me that her SAT score was 890. This was at University of California, Berkeley. If I had submitted an application with an SAT score of 890, they wouldn't read the rest of my application. They would have laughed at me.

Exactly. I remember Filipino students not checking Asian and checking Latino when they were applying for grad school.

**mango girl** · #5 (**permalink**) 10-02-2007, 10:33 AM

I think diversifying colleges and universities is a good thing, but I'm not talking about skin color. I think Affirmative Action and Quotas are racist.

I think the college admissions systems need to be revamped. Standardized test scores and GPA's are not the measure of a person's intelligence. Things such as creativity, critical thinking, problem solving abilities.

Taken from a termpaper I found quoted on another site:

Quote:

Finally, there are many who believe that Asians excel because they have the highest IQs in the world. But there is no evidence to support this assertion. One study, conducted by Harold Stevenson, tested the IQs of children in Japan, China and America, carefully matching them for socioeconomic status and demographic variables. He found no differences in IQ. (13) Another set of studies conducted by Richard Lynn supposedly found a higher IQ in Asians, but his research has been heavily criticized on methodological grounds -- among other problems, his Asian test group was tiny and unrepresentative of the population at large. (14)

In the U.S. during the early 1900s, Asians -- like Jews -- scored much lower on IQ tests than native whites. Their tests scores improved over time as highly educated immigrants continued arriving in the U.S., and their social positions improved. (15)

So Asians aren't necissarily smarter, they are just better at working the system. Sure, they work hard, but is that only quality we want in our nations elite? Someone who's mentally retarded can work hard, but I don't want him leading the nation.

I think the problem isn't quotas, or affirmitive action. I think the problem is the admissions process period. If Asians are representing roughly 25% of our top universities, and they are only 5% of the population, and they aren't naturally more intelligent, then the system isn't geared to find the nation's best and brightest. But only those who can conform the best.

Mango girl's boyfriend · #6 (**permalink**) 10-02-2007, 10:41 AM

I agree the system needs top be re-vamped. I agree Asians are not necessarily smarter and I've been the first one to admit that I know my way around the system. But I still say, the admissions system should be merit based even if the admissions system is revamped.

But this also begs a separate but somewhat related question (and not solely directed towards you): since Asians are in your words are better than working the system and since whites developed the system and whites have been here a lot longer than Asians. Why haven't whites figured out the system? Or is it the case of being beaten at their own game and thus there needs to be a changed of rules? Or is it the case where it's just an antiquated system not suited for today's demographics? Not gonna lie, I can't help there's a sense of worry for a lack of a better term, that White people are worried that Asians are catching up or at the very least have the mentality of "look at these slanted eye yellow mongrels slowly taking over yet they haven't been in this country long enough and paid their dues." I mean most that apply or citizens or soon to be citizens? I'm not asking for Asians to dominate the student body across every top tier school in the nation. I just want to compete based on merit and not skin color or to fill some stupid quota.

AZN · #7 (**permalink**) 10-02-2007, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Yes, Asians fill the top universities, yes, Asians are crawling with honors and merits, yes, Asian are flying through with perfect grades yet how many of them are actually intellectuals? The sad truth I found to answer this question, is “virtually none”. I’ve looked. I’ve searched. The number is minuscule in an already minuscule demographic.

I have heard this argument before and it's been stated on other forums. The fact of the matter is, the asian mindset is strongly cultured by principles taught by their parents and their peers. As an asian, you are taught to get good grades, excel at school, beat out the competition, etc. in order to get a good education at a top ranked uni for the purpose of career aspirations only. To be the man of the house and take care of your family financially if you will.. BUT how many are really passionate about the field if not for career purposes? I think that's what the poster is saying. I went to a top ranked uni and it was 30% + asians from undergrad on up. Where the level of asians drop off is at the phd level, Very few were in phd programs and whenever we did get a chinese prof he/she was a transfer from an overseas big name university in europe or china but rarely from North America. Look at the big names in schience, maths, technology today? Very very few are asians. At the highest elite levels, the asians overwhelming the ungrad population certainly drops off.. I see this is slowly changing with china opening up its markets certainly from commericial and financial sectors. China has applied for the most patents of 2007 and certainly innovations aren't too far behind from a culture that created gun powder, the umbrella, paper, and numerous other products we take for granted. The Nobel prize winners from asia have been few and far between. Maybe once again in the near future we will see the high level intellectuals the poster is referring to from the "old" china.

List of asian Nobel prize winners of recent times are few:

2000 - South Korean President Kim Dae-jung for his work for democracy and human rights in South Korea and in East Asia, especially for peace and reconciliation with North Korea.

1974 - Former Japanese Prime Minister Eisaku Sato, who shared the award with Irish U.N. Commissioner for Namibia Sean MacBride.

1973 - Le Duc Tho from North Vietnam -- who declined the prize. The award was shared with U.S. former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger for a failed deal to end the Vietnam war.

.

**ProAzn** · #8 (**permalink**) 10-02-2007, 10:52 AM

I love your posts MG, you really bring up some interesting topics that make people stop and think.

I can see all sides that each of you have brought up. I think a bit like MGB. I see what he is saying here.

I will post a longer post on this when I get home tonight. It will be a pretty long one because I have thoughts on this subject too.

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